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MMG Map Design Discussion
May 25, 2017 6:25:52 GMT -8
Post by The City [EclipseZwolf] on May 25, 2017 6:25:52 GMT -8
I was casually chatting with Sova the other day and we both expressed some difficulty with our map designs. I wanted to make a thread about it to get some people to chime in and see what everyone thinks. I'll go ahead and jump straight into it then.
I have hosted a grand total of 6 games if we count Blood Revenge(ongoing at time of thread creation). Each game has had a RADICALLY different map layout and setup and results have been mixed. I'll list them below for those unfamiliar.
Season Blood Shift
-Primary Map consisted of 22 main rooms excluding player rooms. 12 Plot rooms, 9 general rooms, and the trial room.
-Game operated in Chapters. Murder or plot could advance the game to the next chapter which would "Blood Shift" the map.
-In each chapter the general rooms themselves didn't change, but their contents and the doors would. So the Office was still the Office, but now all the computers are displaying something and there is blood on the walls and maybe some new items lying around. The doors leading through the facility also changed. so now the way to get from X room to Y room changed.
-A few minor gimmicks with doors. Plot rooms were sealed with riddles and 2-3 were available per chapter. Some one way doors.
-The entire map was not available immediately. Certain doors and rooms were inaccessible until certain plot or murder requirements advanced the game to future chapters. At game start there were 9 such unavailable rooms
Season Zircon Zephyros
-Primary Map was a 25x25 grid that was split into different Zones. So the Mountain zone consists of the following X spaces on the grid.
-Each Zone had a thread for placing movement, but within each zone players could move to specific grid spaces and search them. Meant to create a situation of a person occupying a small area, but being able to see over a larger one.
-There were 5-10 Hidden Rooms on the map that essentially led into regular style room threads.
-Plot was hidden on random grid spaces and locations.
-Entire map was accessible at the start of the game. Players could immediately move to the mastermind to try and confront them.
Season Emerald Enlightenment
-Primary Map consisted of 75-100 rooms. Large variation as some rooms were created and destroyed by events in game.
-Map split into 6 primary zones. Game starts with access to two. Locating all plot in an accessible area would trigger a timed opening of the next segment. Murder would also open the next area. Order of accessing zones was set in stone.
-Each Zone consisted of a Hallway and branching rooms. Hallways generally didn't contain anything of note.
-Tunnels were how the map was given randomness and alternate escape routes. Periodically, earthquakes would occur and would either, Seal a Door, Open a Door, Open a Tunnel, or Seal a Tunnel. Sealing a door deleted its room links, preventing passage. Opening a door inverted that, adding a link to indicate a unearthed door or a smashed wall, etc. Opening a tunnel created an entire now room which served as a hallway between two random rooms. The effect and targets of the earthquakes were determined by dice.
Season Azure Amaranthine
-Primary Map consisted of 80 or so rooms. No room creation or deletion mid game of note.
-Map split into four primary zones. The Fort, Hospital, Forest, and House.
-Game Map and environment were determined based on the mental status of the mastermind, an invisible value that changed as people died, interacted with the map, and interacted with the mastermind. Negatively influencing the mastermind rapidly caused new areas to open while positively influencing the mastermind required more work to open later areas.
-Certain ways to trick the system and get into areas early.
Season Murdimals
- Primary Map consisted of 50 or so rooms. Room deletion occurred mid game caused by the Mastermind.
-Map split into zones, but all accessible at the start of the game. Mastermind could be confronted directly and immediately.
-Each zone on the map required a certain form of locomotion to access, IE Underwater zones required the ability to swim and dive.
-Water movement granted access to many new rooms and some specified shortcuts across the map.
-Flying movement granted access to one or two new rooms and allowed warping between rooms with a delay while flying.
-Land granted general access to most content via room links. Majority of rooms and no shortcuts.
-There were some ways to cheat the system and gain access to other locomotion options.
Season Blood Revenge
- Primary Map consists of 108 rooms, including player rooms.
-Map split into 4 main zones, with 1 of those zones sectioned into three smaller zones.
-Game begins with access to a single zone. The passwords to the other three zones could be found immediately in the starting zone. So with some investigation the entire map is available from the start of the game.
-Multiple rooms with complicated locks. Some riddle, some key, some scanner which sometimes can be permanently unlocked and other times have to be opened by each player on their own.
-Murder does not grant access to new zones, but can help open doors.
-20 or so rooms made into hallways with no real content, but to grant numerous different paths between any two rooms. hallways arranged in a criss cross pattern with rooms filling in squares.
As you can see, I have tried out ALOT of things and even once tossed out the whole standard map system for a new one in Zircon(It didnt work well RIP). As a note, Murder occurred fairly regularly in Blood Shift, but not in the other seasons. Zircon had no murder, Emerald had some minor violence and plot death, and Azure had instances of violence and technically murder, but nothing complicated that needed solving. Murdimals had some attempted murders, but nothing significant. Blood Revenge is still ongoing.
I know my hosting style isn't exactly kind to murderers so I blame that partly for the lack of it. My goal is to figure out how to give murderers a fighting chance on the map and reward creativity, but not make it easy to win via murder. My discussion with Sova touched on a couple things I want to ask how people feel about.
Item Hoards: This would be the storage rooms in revenge or other rooms in previous games where a player could "search" for almost any item and find it given enough time. The intent with these was to avoid limiting murder to the items that a host put on a map. If a host was like oops I didn't put in a any rope, a player could still get away with it by pulling the specific rope need out of a Hoard. In DanganRonpa the comparison is to the DR2 Supermarket, where alot of murderific items were used and only really taken note of after use in murder. So my question is whether or not having these kind of areas is beneficial. Does it encourage creativity in murder? Or is it simply too easy and broad to be fun? Do you prefer having to work with the specific items listed in the game?
The Magical Murder Room: This one was a bit weird, but interesting. This would be where you enter a room and the ROOM ITSELF enables some kind of really interesting murder. The comparison would be DR2 Trial 4 where the Layout of the funhouse and the Towers was pivotal in the committing of the crime. Other examples include rooms with traps or things that could potentially kill people. A player could come in and essentially use the room to make an environmental kill. My response to this was, but isn't that to easy? Wouldn't it be too hard to solve since anyone can walk in and "use" the room? DR2 Trial 4 begs not as the trial is exceptionally interesting and difficult to solve as the mystery of the murder is more about HOW the building could be used. The culprit only gets caught though cause of some luck based things outside of the scope of the environmental kill. Do you guys want rooms like this? How would you recommend balancing them for murders vs. detectives?
Real Time Murder: This is a...tough thing to ask since it partially defines MMG. Do you guys think we need to revisit the real time murder thing? Currently one of the hardest parts of MMG is the fact that to commit murder you have to do it in real time and any player could just LOL MOVEMENT POSTING and walk in on the crime. To resolve this maps have gotten GIGANTIC. HUMONGOUS. GIMONGOUS. Initial seasons had tens of rooms. We are now having seasons with hundreds of rooms. Do we fall back to older systems where players submit their entire murder plan in one PM and the mastermind reviews and executes while the real time session is paused? Or is there some middle ground we can come too so that hosts don't feel the need to make a hundred rooms so that Joe can kill Bob without Jimmy walking into the room mid kill.
MMG Open World: Speaking of maps being gigantic. How big should maps be? Clearly it varies by game as some excel with a small number while others prefer the large widespread areas. This relates to both Mystery and Murder. Big maps means lots of places to hide plot documents and things as well as giving murderers the time and space to setup kills. It also means alot of empty space. Rooms without plot, hallways that serve no purpose but to burn peoples minutes while playing. Its great that we can give real time murderers more time, but is that worth the additional 30+ minutes people spend per session just moving. I don't exactly consider movement posts as THRILLING or interesting content. Then players go into rooms and spend time looking under couches and beds to get told NOTHING OF NOTE, and that is for 4 outta every 5 rooms. I personally, as a player and host, find it kind of frustrating to spend those minutes and to not really accomplish anything. ESPECIALLY now that I am super limited time wise for playing. So what does everyone think? Is the empty space for movement and map realism worth it? Should we be trying to make the hallways more interesting or remove them altogether? How many "Filler" Rooms do we really need in a game?
Just looking for a kind of general discussion, so if you have an opinion on something, even if you haven't experienced it or know much feel free to post.
I have hosted a grand total of 6 games if we count Blood Revenge(ongoing at time of thread creation). Each game has had a RADICALLY different map layout and setup and results have been mixed. I'll list them below for those unfamiliar.
Season Blood Shift
-Primary Map consisted of 22 main rooms excluding player rooms. 12 Plot rooms, 9 general rooms, and the trial room.
-Game operated in Chapters. Murder or plot could advance the game to the next chapter which would "Blood Shift" the map.
-In each chapter the general rooms themselves didn't change, but their contents and the doors would. So the Office was still the Office, but now all the computers are displaying something and there is blood on the walls and maybe some new items lying around. The doors leading through the facility also changed. so now the way to get from X room to Y room changed.
-A few minor gimmicks with doors. Plot rooms were sealed with riddles and 2-3 were available per chapter. Some one way doors.
-The entire map was not available immediately. Certain doors and rooms were inaccessible until certain plot or murder requirements advanced the game to future chapters. At game start there were 9 such unavailable rooms
Season Zircon Zephyros
-Primary Map was a 25x25 grid that was split into different Zones. So the Mountain zone consists of the following X spaces on the grid.
-Each Zone had a thread for placing movement, but within each zone players could move to specific grid spaces and search them. Meant to create a situation of a person occupying a small area, but being able to see over a larger one.
-There were 5-10 Hidden Rooms on the map that essentially led into regular style room threads.
-Plot was hidden on random grid spaces and locations.
-Entire map was accessible at the start of the game. Players could immediately move to the mastermind to try and confront them.
Season Emerald Enlightenment
-Primary Map consisted of 75-100 rooms. Large variation as some rooms were created and destroyed by events in game.
-Map split into 6 primary zones. Game starts with access to two. Locating all plot in an accessible area would trigger a timed opening of the next segment. Murder would also open the next area. Order of accessing zones was set in stone.
-Each Zone consisted of a Hallway and branching rooms. Hallways generally didn't contain anything of note.
-Tunnels were how the map was given randomness and alternate escape routes. Periodically, earthquakes would occur and would either, Seal a Door, Open a Door, Open a Tunnel, or Seal a Tunnel. Sealing a door deleted its room links, preventing passage. Opening a door inverted that, adding a link to indicate a unearthed door or a smashed wall, etc. Opening a tunnel created an entire now room which served as a hallway between two random rooms. The effect and targets of the earthquakes were determined by dice.
Season Azure Amaranthine
-Primary Map consisted of 80 or so rooms. No room creation or deletion mid game of note.
-Map split into four primary zones. The Fort, Hospital, Forest, and House.
-Game Map and environment were determined based on the mental status of the mastermind, an invisible value that changed as people died, interacted with the map, and interacted with the mastermind. Negatively influencing the mastermind rapidly caused new areas to open while positively influencing the mastermind required more work to open later areas.
-Certain ways to trick the system and get into areas early.
Season Murdimals
- Primary Map consisted of 50 or so rooms. Room deletion occurred mid game caused by the Mastermind.
-Map split into zones, but all accessible at the start of the game. Mastermind could be confronted directly and immediately.
-Each zone on the map required a certain form of locomotion to access, IE Underwater zones required the ability to swim and dive.
-Water movement granted access to many new rooms and some specified shortcuts across the map.
-Flying movement granted access to one or two new rooms and allowed warping between rooms with a delay while flying.
-Land granted general access to most content via room links. Majority of rooms and no shortcuts.
-There were some ways to cheat the system and gain access to other locomotion options.
Season Blood Revenge
- Primary Map consists of 108 rooms, including player rooms.
-Map split into 4 main zones, with 1 of those zones sectioned into three smaller zones.
-Game begins with access to a single zone. The passwords to the other three zones could be found immediately in the starting zone. So with some investigation the entire map is available from the start of the game.
-Multiple rooms with complicated locks. Some riddle, some key, some scanner which sometimes can be permanently unlocked and other times have to be opened by each player on their own.
-Murder does not grant access to new zones, but can help open doors.
-20 or so rooms made into hallways with no real content, but to grant numerous different paths between any two rooms. hallways arranged in a criss cross pattern with rooms filling in squares.
As you can see, I have tried out ALOT of things and even once tossed out the whole standard map system for a new one in Zircon(It didnt work well RIP). As a note, Murder occurred fairly regularly in Blood Shift, but not in the other seasons. Zircon had no murder, Emerald had some minor violence and plot death, and Azure had instances of violence and technically murder, but nothing complicated that needed solving. Murdimals had some attempted murders, but nothing significant. Blood Revenge is still ongoing.
I know my hosting style isn't exactly kind to murderers so I blame that partly for the lack of it. My goal is to figure out how to give murderers a fighting chance on the map and reward creativity, but not make it easy to win via murder. My discussion with Sova touched on a couple things I want to ask how people feel about.
Item Hoards: This would be the storage rooms in revenge or other rooms in previous games where a player could "search" for almost any item and find it given enough time. The intent with these was to avoid limiting murder to the items that a host put on a map. If a host was like oops I didn't put in a any rope, a player could still get away with it by pulling the specific rope need out of a Hoard. In DanganRonpa the comparison is to the DR2 Supermarket, where alot of murderific items were used and only really taken note of after use in murder. So my question is whether or not having these kind of areas is beneficial. Does it encourage creativity in murder? Or is it simply too easy and broad to be fun? Do you prefer having to work with the specific items listed in the game?
The Magical Murder Room: This one was a bit weird, but interesting. This would be where you enter a room and the ROOM ITSELF enables some kind of really interesting murder. The comparison would be DR2 Trial 4 where the Layout of the funhouse and the Towers was pivotal in the committing of the crime. Other examples include rooms with traps or things that could potentially kill people. A player could come in and essentially use the room to make an environmental kill. My response to this was, but isn't that to easy? Wouldn't it be too hard to solve since anyone can walk in and "use" the room? DR2 Trial 4 begs not as the trial is exceptionally interesting and difficult to solve as the mystery of the murder is more about HOW the building could be used. The culprit only gets caught though cause of some luck based things outside of the scope of the environmental kill. Do you guys want rooms like this? How would you recommend balancing them for murders vs. detectives?
Real Time Murder: This is a...tough thing to ask since it partially defines MMG. Do you guys think we need to revisit the real time murder thing? Currently one of the hardest parts of MMG is the fact that to commit murder you have to do it in real time and any player could just LOL MOVEMENT POSTING and walk in on the crime. To resolve this maps have gotten GIGANTIC. HUMONGOUS. GIMONGOUS. Initial seasons had tens of rooms. We are now having seasons with hundreds of rooms. Do we fall back to older systems where players submit their entire murder plan in one PM and the mastermind reviews and executes while the real time session is paused? Or is there some middle ground we can come too so that hosts don't feel the need to make a hundred rooms so that Joe can kill Bob without Jimmy walking into the room mid kill.
MMG Open World: Speaking of maps being gigantic. How big should maps be? Clearly it varies by game as some excel with a small number while others prefer the large widespread areas. This relates to both Mystery and Murder. Big maps means lots of places to hide plot documents and things as well as giving murderers the time and space to setup kills. It also means alot of empty space. Rooms without plot, hallways that serve no purpose but to burn peoples minutes while playing. Its great that we can give real time murderers more time, but is that worth the additional 30+ minutes people spend per session just moving. I don't exactly consider movement posts as THRILLING or interesting content. Then players go into rooms and spend time looking under couches and beds to get told NOTHING OF NOTE, and that is for 4 outta every 5 rooms. I personally, as a player and host, find it kind of frustrating to spend those minutes and to not really accomplish anything. ESPECIALLY now that I am super limited time wise for playing. So what does everyone think? Is the empty space for movement and map realism worth it? Should we be trying to make the hallways more interesting or remove them altogether? How many "Filler" Rooms do we really need in a game?
Just looking for a kind of general discussion, so if you have an opinion on something, even if you haven't experienced it or know much feel free to post.
