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Real Time vs. Turn Time: A Season Discussion
Dec 6, 2016 10:11:13 GMT -8
Post by The City [EclipseZwolf] on Dec 6, 2016 10:11:13 GMT -8
Real Time vs. Turn Time
Hello everyone, this is a thread to discuss some of the merits and failings of games run in Real Time compared to Turn Time. This is partially sparked by the current drought of seasons being hosted with many hosts citing being too busy IRL to reliably host develop a game. Turn Time is easier to run on a stricter IRL schedule so while trying to throw together things I had to consider if I would do that instead of real time, and if so, how? Let's start with some explanations first though.
Real-Time Season: A season where the game is ON or OFF. When the game is ON, players are moving and acting in Real Time with the host actively responding to all players. When the game is OFF, the host is not responding and all player action is to cease.
Begin Pause Start Pause Start End
|--------------|_______________|------------|________________|--------------|
------ = Game Ongoing
_______ = Game Paused
Turn-Time Season: Also can be referred to as Phase-Time Seasons, these games technically "run" all the time but with some major differences. IRL time periods are sectioned into pieces and each assigned a Turn or Phase. For example, any actions sent for the 48 hours following the game's start are in Pre-Game Phase. At the end of the period, the host has every player's pmed action or actions get performed simultaneously with the other players. The start of the next phase repeats the process, possibly with slightly different rules and a different allotted amount of time.
Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase 3 Phase 4
|------------------------|__________________|~~~~~~~~~~~~|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
------ = Standard Turn
________ = Murder Turn
~~~~~= Investigation Turn
^^^^^ = Trial Turn
For Turn Time, the Host needs only be available at the direct ending of each phase for calculations of the phase's outcome and to transition to the next phase. The host can over course do things while the phase/turn is ongoing but may not be strictly required to be present. For me in this case, the phase would occur while I am at work, unable to host, then when I return home I am able to resolve outcomes and declare events before allowing things to move into the next phase. My current schedule is much better suited to this style than the real time one where I end up marked two hours every day and trying to be available those entire two hours consistently which I managed to screw up pretty bad. That said, there are things I am giving up when shifting out of real time.
Real-Time Benefits
-Dynamic Player Interaction: Such as reacting to screams or fight/flight choices when running into players on the map.
-Play at your own Pace: Long as you are in ON time, you can play as fast or as slowly as you want.
-Evolving Scenarios: Circumstances change on the fly and you can react. Murder didn't go clean, now you have to clean blood off your hands, etc.
-Immediate Support: Need Clarification? The mastermind is present to help, no need to wait an undetermined amount of time to find out exactly how high off the ground that table is.
There are some downsides to Real-Time, but whether Turn-Time would resolve that depends on the design. Some of these "Flaws" may actually be desirable depending on the host and game.
Real-Time Failings
-Forest o' Foresight: Predicting or foreseeing the exact state of the game is darn near impossible due to all the variables. Players who are active, where they are, what they do, whether they cheat out on movement, etc. As a result...
-Murderous Cacophony: Murdering in a small contained area with 15 essentially random moving people and not getting spotted is nigh on impossible. Plus, if anything kicks the proverbial hornet's next such as the body being found, those 15 random peeps are now in panic mode and moving frantically. Welcome to pain and suffering.
-Timed Murder: Due to activity, murdering during low activity times seems like common sense unless you have a really good master plan at controlling 10+ people. While not uncommon for murder to occur at night, during a game like these its really easy to just be chatting with someone at the time of the murder. Suddenly you were "online" during the murder unlike many people making you an easy suspect.
-Malignant Murder: In Real-Time Players are more prone to making rash, spur of the moment decisions. HE HAS A NOSE, SHOOT HIM. and then you have a really really poor murder, an unhappy dead player, and a guy who is soon to be pissed off that they are getting executed. There is no time for emotions to cooldown before acting, but if that's how the game is supposed to be with high tensions fine.
-Mastermind Lag-ag-ag: During high activity periods or ones where players are doing mastermind intensive actions, such as fighting, the mastermind tends to lag behind on responses. Either focusing on fights to end them rapidly so as not to allow the randomly walking players to step in on them in 20 minutes after the fight has only had 20 seconds of actual action, or by maintaining equality which makes very short fast actions like fighting take a LOT of IRL time to get through.
These are only some of the more immediate things that come to mind when talking about the Real Time setup and its issues. There are most likely more, but in general Real-Time favors investigative players as evidence is more precise and learning alot rapidly is fairly simple. It is more punishing on killers as they have to plan, execute, and clean up their murder in real time, an unsurprisingly difficult task if the map isn't gargantuan. Many of the situations flip when you switch to turn time however. Murderers have a very easy time constructing elaborate murders and while methods to sneak around may be necessary, players do not actually have to execute them, instead they just happen during the turn. Detectives become limited in the number of questions they can ask the mastermind due to the time constraints and unavailability resulting in less information overall.
Waters Rising
Proposed Turn-Time System
So yes, this does lead into me proposing a Turn-Time style system for Season Waters Rising which I am doing as a kind of filler season. I will have more information on it in its eventual applications and rules thread, but here is a quick summary.
You, and the other players, were shipwrecked and woke up on the beach of a mysterious island. The island is constructed of several plateaus, each higher than the last. You stand upon the lowest, a large beach and series of sandbars further into the ocean. Curious as to the rest of the island, you look for a method to reach the next plateau up, however the sheer rock walls appear impassible. At the center of the massive wall though, an ancient looking door is carved out of the wall's body. As you examine the door, the earth quakes and you hear the boom of thunder in the distance. You turn around to look for the storm and find water lapping at your feet. The tide is coming in and the water rising. If it comes much higher you will and the others will all be in danger. With renewed vigor the search for a method to climb continues. Suddenly, screams are heard and a body washes up towards the door with a crash of waves.
A short bout of panic ensues when a larger wave crashes upon the now very small beach and hits the door, water seeping through several holes scattered at its base. The sound of water through pipes echoes out along with the sound of stone on stone when the door suddenly lights up, a paragraph of glowing text appearing on its front. The sound of chains and yelps draws your attention back as you feel something clamp onto your legs. Looking down, from beneath the sand a pair of shackles have risen out and attached themselves to the ankles of you and all the others present. A quick read of the text on the door explains the situation. To open the door, one must be sacrificed.
Waters Rising Turns
Standard Turn
Allotted Time: 3 IRL days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gathering, Basic Player Interaction
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Movement Posts are used, except players may move from any location to any other accessible location.(Season 1 for you Vets out there) Upon moving, send a PM to the mastermind for logs, you do not need to wait for a response.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as the generic, however do not wait for the mastermind to respond. If you are taking an item, assume you get it for future actions. The mastermind will update you on all posts at the end of the day.
-Murder Preparation: If you intend to Murder on this cycle of turns then PM the mastermind at some point with a statement of Intent and Target. This will be important during the Kill/Murder Turn.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
-Max Action: Each day has an unstated action limit. While the mastermind is responding to players they will inform them of the cutoff of their pms and which were not completed due to time. This is in order to prevent someone from pming "I examine the everything in everywhere." or Sakuing away with all the items.
Kill/Murder Turn
Allotted Time: 1-1.5 IRL Days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gather, Basic Player Interaction, Execute Murder
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Same as Standard Turn. The Killer has slightly altered rules.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as Standard Turn: The Killer has slightly altered rules.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
-The Killer: Either at the End of the Standard Turn or beginning of the Kill/Murder Turn, The Killer will be alerted that they are the killer. The killer will be selected from those who submitted an Intent and Target. In Waters Rising there can only be one killer per cycle. If no players submit an Intent and Target, there will be no Killer. As a result no one will die, but the turns will continue as normal.
-Killing Rules: The Killer can move without making movement posts(you can make movement posts if you so desire), but must still PM the mastermind. The killer may make additional murder preparation at this time if they so desire. When ready they must move to the Target's location and submit the Murder plan.
-Event Evasion: At the end of the Kill/Murder turn when the mastermind updates all players, the host will submit questions to each player about events that happen while they act IE: "while grabbing the shovel you hear the bushes to your left rustle. What do you do?" Failing to respond before the declaration of the next phase will assume you did nothing. If you perform no actions during the Kill Turn you will not get any questions and will not have a chance to defend yourself. ALL players will get questions, not just the Target. The Killer will get questions dealing with the kill and the victim's responses. This will determine if the kill fails, succeeds, and other additional side information such as blood spatter. The killer will have a chance to update the cleanup phase of their murder plan at this point.
Investigation Turn
Allotted Time: 2 IRL Days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gathering, Basic Player Interaction
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Movement Posts are used, except players may move from any location to any other accessible location.(Season 1 for you Vets out there) Upon moving, send a PM to the mastermind for logs, you do not need to wait for a response.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as the generic, however do not wait for the mastermind to respond. If you are taking an item, assume you get it for future actions. The mastermind will update you on all posts at the end of the day.
-Body Discovery: The body will be discovered by 3 players at random. The Killer may be one of them either intentionally or randomly.
-Murder Investigation: Players may investigate the murder in the same method as examinations and actions. There are no limits on the number of Murder Investigation PMs you can send. Remember this will last two days, which means you will be updated halfway through. Anything you want to follow up on make sure to ask during the first day of Investigation.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
The Drowning(Trial Turn)
Allotted Time: 24 Hours
Actions: Trial Discussion, Voting
:Turn Rules:
-The Drowning Trial: Players are chained in a single location and forced to choose one among them to be sacrificed to the ocean. Players discuss in a Trial Thread(IM Chat is being considered) whom should die. This is purely talk and discussion, so feel free to roleplay your character pleading that they are an asset to humanity and can't die here.
-The Vote: Players at any point may PM the mastermind with whom they vote for. This may be changed at any point prior to the Turn's end. Votes are locked immediately when time expires.
-The Sacrifice: Any player who does not have the most votes, will have their shackles unlock and can flee to the next plateau on the island. The player with the most votes will not be released and will be unable to escape the rising water and drown. There must be a Sacrifice WHETHER SOMEONE WAS MURDERED OR NOT!
-Killer's Gambit: If a Killer survives a Drowning, they will be able to skip immediately to the top of the island(to be explained later) and since the escape at the top of the island leaves when 3 people have arrived, players are encouraged to Drown killers over innocents. As long as no more than 2 killers evade drowning in trial then all survivors who reach the top of the island at the end of the last drowning will escape. Killer's who skip the remainder are safe from Murder as well.
The Climb(Transition Turn)
Allotted Time: Varied
Actions: None
:Turn Rules:
-Management: This turn moves all players from one section of the island to the next. Surviving killers will skip to the island's highest point. The new map area will be opened up and the Turns will restart at the Standard Turn. Players are free to RP at this time with other characters as to their thoughts on the previous section.
And that concludes the initial Turn setup for Waters Rising. The days in this on add up to roughly 7 days with a little extra in case things take extra time. Assuming the game has 5 Cycles with a Tutorial and an Ending this could go on for a long time even assuming that each cycle lasts 7 days and the tutorial and ending take 1. A month long game isn't something to sniff at although it certainly fits the bill of Filler. Obviously this has problems and its weird and not normal MMG so I want some feedback on ways I could alter this to make a better turn time season. If reading this just solidifies your thoughts that the Real Time is the Only Time then please tell me why you think that(and possibly any ways you would work around my awkward timetable).
If you have general thoughts about Real Time vs. Turn Time please add those as well. Determining better ways to host both is my goal here.
Hello everyone, this is a thread to discuss some of the merits and failings of games run in Real Time compared to Turn Time. This is partially sparked by the current drought of seasons being hosted with many hosts citing being too busy IRL to reliably host develop a game. Turn Time is easier to run on a stricter IRL schedule so while trying to throw together things I had to consider if I would do that instead of real time, and if so, how? Let's start with some explanations first though.
Real-Time Season: A season where the game is ON or OFF. When the game is ON, players are moving and acting in Real Time with the host actively responding to all players. When the game is OFF, the host is not responding and all player action is to cease.
Begin Pause Start Pause Start End
|--------------|_______________|------------|________________|--------------|
------ = Game Ongoing
_______ = Game Paused
Turn-Time Season: Also can be referred to as Phase-Time Seasons, these games technically "run" all the time but with some major differences. IRL time periods are sectioned into pieces and each assigned a Turn or Phase. For example, any actions sent for the 48 hours following the game's start are in Pre-Game Phase. At the end of the period, the host has every player's pmed action or actions get performed simultaneously with the other players. The start of the next phase repeats the process, possibly with slightly different rules and a different allotted amount of time.
Phase 1 Phase 2 Phase 3 Phase 4
|------------------------|__________________|~~~~~~~~~~~~|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
------ = Standard Turn
________ = Murder Turn
~~~~~= Investigation Turn
^^^^^ = Trial Turn
For Turn Time, the Host needs only be available at the direct ending of each phase for calculations of the phase's outcome and to transition to the next phase. The host can over course do things while the phase/turn is ongoing but may not be strictly required to be present. For me in this case, the phase would occur while I am at work, unable to host, then when I return home I am able to resolve outcomes and declare events before allowing things to move into the next phase. My current schedule is much better suited to this style than the real time one where I end up marked two hours every day and trying to be available those entire two hours consistently which I managed to screw up pretty bad. That said, there are things I am giving up when shifting out of real time.
Real-Time Benefits
-Dynamic Player Interaction: Such as reacting to screams or fight/flight choices when running into players on the map.
-Play at your own Pace: Long as you are in ON time, you can play as fast or as slowly as you want.
-Evolving Scenarios: Circumstances change on the fly and you can react. Murder didn't go clean, now you have to clean blood off your hands, etc.
-Immediate Support: Need Clarification? The mastermind is present to help, no need to wait an undetermined amount of time to find out exactly how high off the ground that table is.
There are some downsides to Real-Time, but whether Turn-Time would resolve that depends on the design. Some of these "Flaws" may actually be desirable depending on the host and game.
Real-Time Failings
-Forest o' Foresight: Predicting or foreseeing the exact state of the game is darn near impossible due to all the variables. Players who are active, where they are, what they do, whether they cheat out on movement, etc. As a result...
-Murderous Cacophony: Murdering in a small contained area with 15 essentially random moving people and not getting spotted is nigh on impossible. Plus, if anything kicks the proverbial hornet's next such as the body being found, those 15 random peeps are now in panic mode and moving frantically. Welcome to pain and suffering.
-Timed Murder: Due to activity, murdering during low activity times seems like common sense unless you have a really good master plan at controlling 10+ people. While not uncommon for murder to occur at night, during a game like these its really easy to just be chatting with someone at the time of the murder. Suddenly you were "online" during the murder unlike many people making you an easy suspect.
-Malignant Murder: In Real-Time Players are more prone to making rash, spur of the moment decisions. HE HAS A NOSE, SHOOT HIM. and then you have a really really poor murder, an unhappy dead player, and a guy who is soon to be pissed off that they are getting executed. There is no time for emotions to cooldown before acting, but if that's how the game is supposed to be with high tensions fine.
-Mastermind Lag-ag-ag: During high activity periods or ones where players are doing mastermind intensive actions, such as fighting, the mastermind tends to lag behind on responses. Either focusing on fights to end them rapidly so as not to allow the randomly walking players to step in on them in 20 minutes after the fight has only had 20 seconds of actual action, or by maintaining equality which makes very short fast actions like fighting take a LOT of IRL time to get through.
These are only some of the more immediate things that come to mind when talking about the Real Time setup and its issues. There are most likely more, but in general Real-Time favors investigative players as evidence is more precise and learning alot rapidly is fairly simple. It is more punishing on killers as they have to plan, execute, and clean up their murder in real time, an unsurprisingly difficult task if the map isn't gargantuan. Many of the situations flip when you switch to turn time however. Murderers have a very easy time constructing elaborate murders and while methods to sneak around may be necessary, players do not actually have to execute them, instead they just happen during the turn. Detectives become limited in the number of questions they can ask the mastermind due to the time constraints and unavailability resulting in less information overall.
Waters Rising
Proposed Turn-Time System
So yes, this does lead into me proposing a Turn-Time style system for Season Waters Rising which I am doing as a kind of filler season. I will have more information on it in its eventual applications and rules thread, but here is a quick summary.
You, and the other players, were shipwrecked and woke up on the beach of a mysterious island. The island is constructed of several plateaus, each higher than the last. You stand upon the lowest, a large beach and series of sandbars further into the ocean. Curious as to the rest of the island, you look for a method to reach the next plateau up, however the sheer rock walls appear impassible. At the center of the massive wall though, an ancient looking door is carved out of the wall's body. As you examine the door, the earth quakes and you hear the boom of thunder in the distance. You turn around to look for the storm and find water lapping at your feet. The tide is coming in and the water rising. If it comes much higher you will and the others will all be in danger. With renewed vigor the search for a method to climb continues. Suddenly, screams are heard and a body washes up towards the door with a crash of waves.
A short bout of panic ensues when a larger wave crashes upon the now very small beach and hits the door, water seeping through several holes scattered at its base. The sound of water through pipes echoes out along with the sound of stone on stone when the door suddenly lights up, a paragraph of glowing text appearing on its front. The sound of chains and yelps draws your attention back as you feel something clamp onto your legs. Looking down, from beneath the sand a pair of shackles have risen out and attached themselves to the ankles of you and all the others present. A quick read of the text on the door explains the situation. To open the door, one must be sacrificed.
Waters Rising Turns
Standard Turn
Allotted Time: 3 IRL days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gathering, Basic Player Interaction
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Movement Posts are used, except players may move from any location to any other accessible location.(Season 1 for you Vets out there) Upon moving, send a PM to the mastermind for logs, you do not need to wait for a response.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as the generic, however do not wait for the mastermind to respond. If you are taking an item, assume you get it for future actions. The mastermind will update you on all posts at the end of the day.
-Murder Preparation: If you intend to Murder on this cycle of turns then PM the mastermind at some point with a statement of Intent and Target. This will be important during the Kill/Murder Turn.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
-Max Action: Each day has an unstated action limit. While the mastermind is responding to players they will inform them of the cutoff of their pms and which were not completed due to time. This is in order to prevent someone from pming "I examine the everything in everywhere." or Sakuing away with all the items.
Kill/Murder Turn
Allotted Time: 1-1.5 IRL Days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gather, Basic Player Interaction, Execute Murder
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Same as Standard Turn. The Killer has slightly altered rules.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as Standard Turn: The Killer has slightly altered rules.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
-The Killer: Either at the End of the Standard Turn or beginning of the Kill/Murder Turn, The Killer will be alerted that they are the killer. The killer will be selected from those who submitted an Intent and Target. In Waters Rising there can only be one killer per cycle. If no players submit an Intent and Target, there will be no Killer. As a result no one will die, but the turns will continue as normal.
-Killing Rules: The Killer can move without making movement posts(you can make movement posts if you so desire), but must still PM the mastermind. The killer may make additional murder preparation at this time if they so desire. When ready they must move to the Target's location and submit the Murder plan.
-Event Evasion: At the end of the Kill/Murder turn when the mastermind updates all players, the host will submit questions to each player about events that happen while they act IE: "while grabbing the shovel you hear the bushes to your left rustle. What do you do?" Failing to respond before the declaration of the next phase will assume you did nothing. If you perform no actions during the Kill Turn you will not get any questions and will not have a chance to defend yourself. ALL players will get questions, not just the Target. The Killer will get questions dealing with the kill and the victim's responses. This will determine if the kill fails, succeeds, and other additional side information such as blood spatter. The killer will have a chance to update the cleanup phase of their murder plan at this point.
Investigation Turn
Allotted Time: 2 IRL Days
Actions: Investigation, Item Gathering, Basic Player Interaction
:Turn Rules:
-Movement: Movement Posts are used, except players may move from any location to any other accessible location.(Season 1 for you Vets out there) Upon moving, send a PM to the mastermind for logs, you do not need to wait for a response.
-Examinations\Actions: Same as the generic, however do not wait for the mastermind to respond. If you are taking an item, assume you get it for future actions. The mastermind will update you on all posts at the end of the day.
-Body Discovery: The body will be discovered by 3 players at random. The Killer may be one of them either intentionally or randomly.
-Murder Investigation: Players may investigate the murder in the same method as examinations and actions. There are no limits on the number of Murder Investigation PMs you can send. Remember this will last two days, which means you will be updated halfway through. Anything you want to follow up on make sure to ask during the first day of Investigation.
-Player Interaction: Players may attempt to speak with other players. PM the mastermind to have the other player alerted that you are speaking with them. The player will be alerted at End of Day and the conversation performed at any point moving forward(The conversation is assumed to happen at the initial PM request)
The Drowning(Trial Turn)
Allotted Time: 24 Hours
Actions: Trial Discussion, Voting
:Turn Rules:
-The Drowning Trial: Players are chained in a single location and forced to choose one among them to be sacrificed to the ocean. Players discuss in a Trial Thread(IM Chat is being considered) whom should die. This is purely talk and discussion, so feel free to roleplay your character pleading that they are an asset to humanity and can't die here.
-The Vote: Players at any point may PM the mastermind with whom they vote for. This may be changed at any point prior to the Turn's end. Votes are locked immediately when time expires.
-The Sacrifice: Any player who does not have the most votes, will have their shackles unlock and can flee to the next plateau on the island. The player with the most votes will not be released and will be unable to escape the rising water and drown. There must be a Sacrifice WHETHER SOMEONE WAS MURDERED OR NOT!
-Killer's Gambit: If a Killer survives a Drowning, they will be able to skip immediately to the top of the island(to be explained later) and since the escape at the top of the island leaves when 3 people have arrived, players are encouraged to Drown killers over innocents. As long as no more than 2 killers evade drowning in trial then all survivors who reach the top of the island at the end of the last drowning will escape. Killer's who skip the remainder are safe from Murder as well.
The Climb(Transition Turn)
Allotted Time: Varied
Actions: None
:Turn Rules:
-Management: This turn moves all players from one section of the island to the next. Surviving killers will skip to the island's highest point. The new map area will be opened up and the Turns will restart at the Standard Turn. Players are free to RP at this time with other characters as to their thoughts on the previous section.
And that concludes the initial Turn setup for Waters Rising. The days in this on add up to roughly 7 days with a little extra in case things take extra time. Assuming the game has 5 Cycles with a Tutorial and an Ending this could go on for a long time even assuming that each cycle lasts 7 days and the tutorial and ending take 1. A month long game isn't something to sniff at although it certainly fits the bill of Filler. Obviously this has problems and its weird and not normal MMG so I want some feedback on ways I could alter this to make a better turn time season. If reading this just solidifies your thoughts that the Real Time is the Only Time then please tell me why you think that(and possibly any ways you would work around my awkward timetable).
If you have general thoughts about Real Time vs. Turn Time please add those as well. Determining better ways to host both is my goal here.
